Comments on: Two words you won’t find in Obama’s platform

By: Obama steps his game up : Dr. Lester K. Spence

Obama steps his game up : Dr. Lester K. Spence — Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:12:43 +0000

[...] I had some strong criticisms of Obama. I didn’t really care about the “he ain’t black” [...]

By: Maxambit / Obama Better Show Me Something on Poverty and Inequality!

Maxambit / Obama Better Show Me Something on Poverty and Inequality! — Sun, 13 May 2007 03:00:13 +0000

[...] from whom I might request political advice, Dr. Lester K. Spence. On May 4, 2007 Les published â€œTwo Words You Wonâ€™t Find in Obamaâ€™s Platform.â€ He followed that post with â€œThe New Poorâ€ and â€œBlack Suburban Isolationâ€ on May 9, 2007. [...]

By: ExodusMentality

ExodusMentality — Mon, 07 May 2007 14:04:23 +0000

After further review, the count is 1-0. Play Ball

By: Submariner

Submariner — Mon, 07 May 2007 02:24:00 +0000

Thank you Dr. Spence and DLT for a thoroughly stimulating and insightful exchange. In Presidential Power and the Modern Presidents, Richard Neustadt described the inherent weakness in the office of the presidency. Specifically, there is a gap between what is expected of the President and what he can deliver. The POTUS (President of the United States) has multiple constituencies compelling him in different directions. To be practicable, a policy must have three elements: proper timing, movement with the tide of history, and support or aquiescence of powerful interests. Historically, the problem of poverty and inequality has only been dealt with substantively during dire circumstances. Arthur Schlesinger Jr.’s Crisis of the Old Order recounts how slow the government was in responding to the exigencies of the Depression. Even FDR’s sweeping policy proposals were considered fairly measured by liberal theorists. However, they were probably the best that he could do at the time. And biographer Randall Woods details the political gymnastics that LBJ had to execute in order to pass social reforms. Even these policies planted the seeds of their destruction because as folks moved up the economic ladder they became more conservative. When times are hard Americans become liberal and when prosperity abounds we become conservative.
America is founded on two institurions, capitalism and democracy. Inequality is the driving force of the market and equality is the engine of democracy. The Money Men by H.W. Brands discusses how democracy and capitalism exist in an uneasy state of equiibrium. Unfortunately, G.W. Bush dropped the baton after Hurricane Katrina, a propitious, rare moment when the underbelly of our national myth was exposed. I acknowledge that by making poverty a central focus of his campaign, Edwards has shown courage to match his ambition. But in their private lives, before national attention, Obama was the one actually in the trenches with the common folk. So, in keeping with the baseball theme, I’ll have to call that a ball:)

By: Lester Spence

Lester Spence — Sun, 06 May 2007 23:29:14 +0000

this is an excellent question, and one that i’d answer in the negative in probably a number of circumstances outside of this one. (and i’m not answering in the positive here necessarily…)

By: DLT

DLT — Sun, 06 May 2007 20:00:45 +0000

If Candidate A has an antipoverty programs that contains jobs, health care, education, tax policy components, and Candidate B has similar policies but refers to them as their education and economic plans, do both Candidates have equivalent antipoverty credentials?

(This is a question only. I don’t have the answer)

I’m struggling with the value of speaking strictly with the terms inequality versus the underlying policy. Think of it as a response to “No Child Left Behind”.

Also, I think the triangulation around personal responsibility is in every Democratic candidates vocabulary (Edwards references it as well). I don’t even think it’s triangulation (picking the position in the middle). I think it’s more defining a social contract to justify government resources. Similar language is utilized for immigration (learn English, be productive, don’t get in jail, …).

By: Lester Spence

Lester Spence — Sun, 06 May 2007 14:18:10 +0000

Thanks for the link to MediaMatters, which does clear things up, as well as for creating the space for conversation. In hindsight saying “Strike one for Obama” gets at what I wanted to, but in a much more aggressive way than that necessary for reasoned conversation at the outset.

I’ve probably said this somewhere here. I would write Obama checks, get people to the polls, and vote for him if he became the candidate. I would not do any of the above for Clinton.

At this stage of the game though we are comparing democratic candidates to one another rather than to the GOP candidate. On paper they are more similar than they are different…but in many ways what appear to be minor differences when compared to the GOP are major when they are in-house comparisons.

Take a look here for example. I’m willing to bet that the differences between Obama’s and Edwards rankings here would be minor (again particularly in comparison to the GOP candidates, and perhaps even in comparison to CLinton). There are some questionable conservative ratings (he votes with the Eagle Forum 33 percent of the time).

I would like at this point to cast a vote for a democratic candidate that I can agree with FULLY. Votes are important to take into account…and his speeches/pamphlets/books are not spilled milk. But for me what those things do (the votes in particular) is make him an attractive candidate if he happens to come out of the primaries. And when I hear about speeches that have him triangulating (talking about personal responsibility AND structural issues, when it is apparent to me that one doesn’t matter), combined with the fact that he has no substantive anti-poverty plan, it moves me to support Edwards.

By: DLT

DLT — Sat, 05 May 2007 21:27:02 +0000

I apologize for my criticisms of you and African-American bloggers. They were heavy handed. I’ve read and heard your work in the past, and I respect it.

This conversation started from a newspaper article referencing an Obama speech. As such, I think it is relevant that the speech be considered in a wider context. In a previous post, you asked for a reference to a speech transcript. I believe that what a candidate is willing to state publicly matters.

Media Matters has a short posting about why the WP article is misleading. Of course, they are offering opinions and information, but you might find it useful.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200705030008?f=h_latest

I think this discussion evolved from the WP article to a contention that Obama doesn’t prioritze issues of race and poverty because they aren’t explicitly stated on his web site. I think my argument was that a web site is only one of many components that can be utilized to evaluate a candidate. I can’t find anything on Obama’s web site to dispute your contention, and I can’t get you to accept alternative media to accept my argument. So, I’ll leave the argument there.

I did a search through the bills Obama and Edwards proposed and co-sponsored, along with their NAACP/ACLU ratings on civil liberties. Both of them are impressive. Obama’s NAACP/ACLU rating is slightly higher than Edwards. This is possibly due to Edwards favoring the death penalty and voting for the Iraq war.

I felt as though I might cherry pick the issues in favor of Obama. I am perfectly willing to discuss issues with you. Please pick a topic that you care about, what you would hope a presidential candidate would do, and we could go from there.

By: Lester Spence

Lester Spence — Sat, 05 May 2007 14:07:56 +0000

More importantly are you willing to actually take some time and find out?

DLT I do not believe that you know what Obama stands for policy wise, not in comparison to Edwards, not in comparison to Clinton.

I do not believe that you have a sense of what black bloggers are saying, nor do I believe that you know where they stand as a group on Obama.

I make both of these statements because while I see you critique what “black bloggers” do, and take a critical stance against my position…you haven’t done so using anything approaching measurable observable facts. Not votes–which are public record. Not policy stances–which are public record. Not ANYTHING.

Take the “poverty”/”inequality” thing for example. If I was being disingenuous, all you’d have to do is go to the website REPLICATE my method and prove me wrong. OR you could come up with a similar method THAT CAN BE REPLICATED and say “well I did this…and came up with a different result.”

What you’ve said in effect is…”I’ve read some books. I’ve heard some speeches. I’ve read some magazines.”

Which means absolutely nothing without facts. I could say I’ve hung out with him in his crib and drank brew and that would carry the same amount of weight.

You’re right. We haven’t been having a conversation. It’s not possible to do that if only one party is bringing facts to the table. A good place for you to start would be by comparing Edwards and Obama’s record on ANY issue you care about.

Other than that you’re just sniping from sentiment.

By: DLT

DLT — Sat, 05 May 2007 06:15:50 +0000

Wow, we really weren’t ever having a conversation. You’re comparison to Clarence Thomas is just silly.

I saw Obama’s speech to the National Action Network last month (C-Span). In that speech he outlines his civil rights accomplishments and stated that if the audience could find any candidate better on civil rights they should vote for them, but Obama said that he was confident that none of the other candidates can approach his record.

Dr. Spence,it’s almost as if a candidate pronouncs the words Katrina, inequality, and poverty in the same sentence, he’s declared substantive. Words make you feel nice, but guess what?

This is the same Edwards who in the 2004 VP debate had no idea about the AIDs epidemic in the African-American community. But, that was the past. After all, Obama attacked our children?

African-Americans will forgive their white politicians for their ignorance everytime. You know why? Because they remember to say poverty and inequality in the same sentence. The sad thing is that our forgiveness is so automatic we don’t even realize we’re doing it. Edwards get a strike? Not on our watch. Maybe what hamstrings us is our desire to be courted versus our motivation to hold everyone accountable.

You discuss being hard on our candidates. It’s more than examining a web site. Can any of these candidates approach Obama’s record in supporting Affirmative Action, death penalty reform, health care expansion, education, …

More importantly are you willing to actually take some time and find out?